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Zeitgeist - Moving Forward

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Sale_123
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icon Re: Zeitgeist - Moving Forward29.01.2011. u 12:13 - pre 160 meseci
Citat:
3way: Razne proizvode je uglavnom moguce 100% reciklirati.
Znaci metal, znaci bakar, znaci ovo znaci ono.
Postoje kompanije koje rade ovo i razbijaju se od para. Tako sto sredjuju djubre drugih ljudi.

Znaci da to sto si ti rekao nema veze sa stvarnoscu, sorry.
...
 
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Ankalagon the Black

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icon Re: Zeitgeist - Moving Forward29.01.2011. u 13:46 - pre 160 meseci
http://blogs.forbes.com/luisak...os-indonesias-day-to-remember/

Citat:
Indonesian President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono flew into Zurich last night from a state visit to India where he and its Prime Minister Dr. Manmohan Singh held extensive talks. He left at 5 a.m. this morning to make his way to Davos where he participating in an early morning session and later addressed the World Economic Forum participants for apparently the first time.

In his speech, Yudhoyono discussed his concerns for price hikes in food and energy prices that could lead to inflation, povery and even unrest. “Over half are in Asia. Imagine the pressure on food, energy, water and resources,” Yudhoyono pointed out, adding, “the next economic war or conflict can be over the race for scarce resources, if we don’t manage it together.



Izgleda da neki svetski lideri mnogo bolje shvataju trenutnu situaciju i opasan put kojim se svet krece. Kao sto sam vec rekao i kao sto Zeitgeist 3 veoma dobro objasnjava (ko je gledao film znace, ko nije neka pogleda) kapitalizam jednostavno u svom modelu uopste ne uzima u razmatranje da necega moze da nestane. Isto kao i kolega forumas Ivan D. ,kapitalista u srcu i dusi :)

Medjutim realnost je sada malo drugacija i postoji potreba za sistematskom promenom u nacinu razmisljanja.
 
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3way

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icon Re: Zeitgeist - Moving Forward29.01.2011. u 13:53 - pre 160 meseci
Citat:
Sale_123: Znaci da to sto si ti rekao nema veze sa stvarnoscu, sorry.


Sta nema veze?
Da se sirovine recikliraju i prodaju dalje?
Sedam sutlijasa,
za sedam samuraja,
za sedam tramvaja.
 
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3way

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icon Re: Zeitgeist - Moving Forward29.01.2011. u 13:56 - pre 160 meseci
Citat:
Ankalagon the Black:
Medjutim realnost je sada malo drugacija i postoji potreba za sistematskom promenom u nacinu razmisljanja.


Nema potrebe.
Ionako ima previse onih koji razmisljaju naopako.
Sedam sutlijasa,
za sedam samuraja,
za sedam tramvaja.
 
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Horvat

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icon Re: Zeitgeist - Moving Forward29.01.2011. u 17:30 - pre 160 meseci
e u medjuvremenu sam slucajno naisao na jednog koji ima onakav stampac koji nakon x odstampanih papira ne da vise da se stampa sa istim tonerom, pa makar on bio i na pola pun
e sad, ako on laze, lazem ja

Citat:
Stexman: Fora je sto je kertridz predvidjen za 3 hiljade strana i tu prestaje da radi, pa makar nista ne odstampao na te 3000 strana :(. Ubedjen sam da je toner skoro do pola pun ali je broj stranica taj koji odredjuje koliko ce ti toner trajati.
 
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boki
Boris Prpic
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boki
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icon Re: Zeitgeist - Moving Forward29.01.2011. u 17:45 - pre 160 meseci
Ma imam ja takav stampac - Color LaserJet 1600

Likovi su ubacili chip u toner koji broji strane.
I onda kad refilujes moras da menjas i taj chip da stavis neki crackovani.


I mislim da vecina danasnjih hp-ovih stampaca ima taj 'feature'
Defective by design.
 
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Milan Kragujevic
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icon Re: Zeitgeist - Moving Forward29.01.2011. u 17:58 - pre 160 meseci
@Wi-Fi - Pa ja imam 10 godina,pa ne verujem...
 
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p3j4
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icon Re: Zeitgeist - Moving Forward29.01.2011. u 20:11 - pre 160 meseci
Rekoh već da mislim kako je taj Zeitgeist remek delo propagande i manipulacije svešću onih protiv kojih je navodno uperen...

Kako Žak Kusto, ali ni "obični" ljudi nisu jedini koji imaju svoja razmišljanja i utopističke vizije sveta, evo dela teksta (iz jednog većeg članka) koji se bavi analizom utopije vladajuće svetske elite, tj. određenih interesnih grupa koji su prepoznali minimum zajedničkih interesa. Oni ipak imaju dovoljno resursa i moći da ozbiljno porade na sprovođenju svojih ideja


Citat:
ceo tekst: Prognosis 2012: Towards a New World Social Order

Prognosis 2012 – a Neo Dark Age


2012 might not be the exact year, but it's difficult to see the endgame lasting much beyond that, and the masters of the universe love symbolism, as with 911 (both in Chile and in Manhattan), KLA 007, and others. 2012 is loaded with symbolism, eg. the Mayan Calendar, and the Internet is buzzing with various 2012-related prophecies, survival strategies, anticipated alien interventions, alignments with galactic radiation fields, etc. And then there is the Hollywood film, 2012, which explicitly portrays the demise of most of humanity, and the pre-planned salvation of a select few. One never knows with Hollywood productions, what is escapist fantasy, and what is aimed at preparing the public mind symbolically for what is to come.

Whatever the exact date, all the threads will come together, geopolitically and domestically, and the world will change. It will be a new era, just as capitalism was a new era after aristocracy, and the Dark Ages followed the era of the Roman Empire. Each era has its own structure, its own economics, its own social forms, and its own mythology. These things must relate to one another coherently, and their nature follows from the fundamental power relationships and economic circumstances of the system.

In our post-2012 world, we have for the first time one centralized global government, and one ruling elite clique(u filmu se oprezno ne koristi termin centralna, tj. svetska vlada već koristi reč superkompjuter "raspodeljivač resursa", ali je suština potpuno ista), a kind of extended royal family, the lords of finance. As we can see with the IMF, WHO, and the WTO, and the other pieces of the embryonic world government, the institutions of governance will make no pretensions about popular representation or democratic responsiveness. Rule will be by means of autocratic global bureaucracies, who take their marching orders from the royal family. This model has already been operating for some time, within its various spheres of influence, as with the restructuring programs forced on the third world, as a condition for getting financing.

Whenever there is a change of era, the previous era is always demonized in mythology(ovo je istorijski obrazac koji je važno zapamtiti). In the Garden of Eden story the serpent is demonized – a revered symbol in paganism, the predecessor to Christianity. When republics came along, the demonization of monarchs was an important part of the process. In the post-2012 world, democracy and national sovereignty will be demonized. This will be very important, in getting people to accept totalitarian rule, and the mythology will contain much that is true...

In those terrible dark days, before the blessed unification of humanity, anarchy reigned in the world. One nation would attack another, no better than predators in the wild. Nations had no coherent policies; voters would swing from one party to another, keeping governments always in transition and confusion. How did they ever think that masses of semi-educated people could govern themselves, and run a complex society? Democracy was an ill-conceived experiment that led only to corruption and chaotic governance. How lucky we are to be in this well-ordered world, where humanity has finally grown up, and those with the best expertise make the decisions.

The economics of non-growth are radically different than capitalist economics. The unit of exchange is likely to be a carbon credit, entitling you to consume the equivalent of one kilogram of fuel. Everything will have a carbon value, allegedly based on how much energy it took to produce it and transport it to market. 'Green consciousness' will be a primary ethic, conditioned early into children. Getting by with less is a virtue; using energy is anti-social; austerity is a responsible and necessary condition.

As with every currency, the bankers will want to manage the scarcity of carbon credits, and that's where global warming alarmism becomes important. Regardless of the availability of resources, carbon credits can be kept arbitrarily scarce simply by setting carbon budgets, based on directives from the IPCC, another of our emerging units of global bureaucratic governance. Such IPCC directives will be the equivalent of the Federal Reserve announcing a change in interest rates. (IPCC i ceo taj "global warming" pokret je pretrpeo popriličan udarac curenjem onih mailova koji dokazuju manipulaciju vremenskih modela, ali bitka još traje. Ukoliko to prođe, implikacije na ekonomiju budućnosti su jasne. Pre ili kasnije valuta će postati CO2 kredit.) Those budgets set the scale of economic activity.

Presumably nations will continue to exist, as official units of governance. However security and policing will be largely centralized and privatized. Like the Roman Legions, the security apparatus will be loyal to the center of empire, not to the place where someone happens to be stationed. We have seen this trend already in the US, as mercenaries have become big business, and police forces are increasingly federalized, militarized, and alienated from the general public.

Just as airports have now been federalized, all transport systems will be under the jurisdiction of the security apparatus. Terrorism will continue as an ongoing bogey-man, justifying whatever security procedures are deemed desirable for social-control purposes. The whole security apparatus will have a monolithic quality to it, a similarity of character regardless of the specific security tasks or location. Everyone dressed in the same Evil Empire black outfits, with big florescent letters on the back of their flack jackets. In essence, the security apparatus will be an occupying army, the emperor's garrison in the provinces.

On a daily basis, you will need to go through checkpoints of various kinds, with varying levels of security requirements. This is where biometrics becomes important. If people can be implanted with chips, then much of the security can be automated, and everyone can be tracked at at all times, and their past activity retrieved. The chip links into your credit balance, so you've got all your currency always with you, along with your medical records and lots else that you don't know about.

There is very little left as regards national sovereignty. Nothing much in the way of foreign policy will have any meaning. With security marching to its own law and its distant drummer, the main role of so-called 'government' will be to allocate and administer the carbon-credit budget that it receives from the IPCC. The IPCC decides how much wealth a nation will receive in a given year, and the government then decides how to distribute that wealth in the form of public services and entitlements. Wealth being measured by the entitlement to expend energy.

In a fundamental sense, this is how things already are, following the collapse and the bailouts. Because governments are so deeply in debt, the bankers are able to dictate the terms of national budgets, as a condition of keeping credit lines open. The carbon economy, with its centrally determined budgets, provides a much simpler and more direct way of micromanaging economic activity and resource distribution throughout the globe.

In order to clear the way for the carbon-credit economy, it will be necessary for Western currencies to collapse, to become worthless, as nations become increasingly insolvent, and the global financial system continues to be systematically dismantled.(Da bi se napravile ovako drastične promene i novi poredak, potrebno je prvo srušiti stari.) The carbon currency will be introduced as an enlightened, progressive 'solution' to the crisis, a currency linked to something real, and to sustainability. The old monetary system will be demonized,(šta ono beše jedna od glavnih poruka filma? ) and again the mythology will contain much that is true...

The pursuit of money is the root of all evil, and the capitalist system was inherently evil. It encouraged greed, and consumption, and it cared nothing about wasting resources.(surprise, surprise! pljuc! sad će globalni "superkompjuter" da reši stvar!) People thought the more money they had, the better off they were. How much wiser we are now, to live within our means, and to understand that a credit is a token of stewardship.

Culturally, the post-capitalist era will be a bit like the medieval era, with aristocrats and lords on top, and the rest peasants and serfs. A definite upper class and lower class. Just as only the old upper class had horses and carriages, only the new upper class will be entitled to access substantial carbon credits. Wealth will be measured by entitlements, more than by acquisitions or earnings. Those outside the bureaucratic hierarchies are the serfs, with subsistence entitlements. Within the bureaucracies, entitlements are related to rank in the hierarchy. Those who operate in the central global institutions are lords of empire, with unlimited access to credits.

But there is no sequestering of wealth, or building of economic empires, outside the structures of the designated bureaucracies. Entitlements are about access to resources and facilities, to be used or not used, but not to be saved and used as capital. The flow of entitlements comes downward, micromanaged from the top. It's a dole economy, at all levels, for people and governments alike – the global regimentation of consumption. As regards regimentation, the post-capitalist culture will also be a bit like the Soviet system. Here's your entitlement card, here's your job assignment, and here's where you'll be living.

With the pervasive security apparatus, and the micromanagement of economic activity, the scenario is clearly about fine-grained social control, according to centralized guidelines and directives. Presumably media will be carefully programmed, with escapist trivia, and a sophisticated version of 1984-style groupthink propaganda pseudo-news, which is pretty much what we already have today. The non-commercial Internet, if there is one, will be limited to monitored, officially-designated chat sites, and other kinds of sanitized forums.

With such a focus on social micromanagement, I do not expect the family unit to survive in the new era, and I expect child-abuse alarmism will be the lever used to destabilize the family. The stage has been set with all the revelations about church and institutional child sexual abuse. Such revelations could have been uncovered any time in the past century, but they came out at a certain time, just as all these other transitional things have been happening. People are now aware that widespread child abuse happens, and they have been conditioned to support strong measures to prevent it.

Whenever I turn on the TV, I see at least one public-service ad, with shocking images, about children who are physically or sexually abused, or criminally neglected, in their homes, and there's a hotline phone number that children can call. It is easy to see how the category of abuse can be expanded, to include parents who don't follow vaccination schedules, whose purchase records don't indicate healthy diets, who have dubious psychological profiles, etc. The state of poverty could be deemed abusive neglect.

With the right media presentation, abuse alarmism would be easy to stir up. Ultimately, a 'child rights' movement becomes an anti-family movement. The state must directly protect the child from birth. The family is demonized...

How scary were the old days, when unlicensed, untrained couples had total control over vulnerable children, behind closed doors, with whatever neuroses, addictions, or perversions the parents happened to possess. How did this vestige of patriarchal slavery, this safe-house den of abuse, continue so long to exist, and not be recognized for what it was? How much better off we are now, with children being raised scientifically, by trained staff, where they are taught healthy values.

Ever since public education was introduced, the state and the family have competed to control childhood conditioning. In religious families, the church has made its own contribution to conditioning. In the micromanaged post-capitalist future, with its Shock Doctrine birth scenario, it would make good sense to take that opportunity to implement the 'final solution' of social control, which is for the state to monopolize child raising. This would eliminate from society the parent-child bond, and hence family-related bonds in general. No longer is there a concept of relatives. There's just worker bees, security bees, and queen bees, who dole out the honey.


Postscript

This has been an extensive and somewhat detailed prognosis, regarding the architecture of the post-capitalist regime, and the transition process required to bring it about. The term 'new world order' is too weak a term to characterize the radical nature of the social transformation anticipated in the prognosis. A more apt characterization would be a 'quantum leap in the domestication of the human species'. Micromanaged lives and microprogrammed beliefs and thoughts. A once wild primate species transformed into something resembling more a bee or ant culture. Needless to say, regular use of psychotropic drugs would be mandated, so that people could cope emotionally with such a sterile, inhuman environment.

For such a profound transformation to be possible, it is easy to see that a very great shock is required, on the scale of collapse and social chaos, and possibly on the scale of a nuclear exchange. There needs to be an implicit mandate to 'do whatever is necessary to get society running again'. The shock needs to leave people in a condition of total helplessness comparable to the survivors in the bombed-out rubble of Germany and Japan after World War 2. Nothing less will do.

(...)

The nature of the carbon economy has been somewhat clearly signaled. Carbon budgets, and carbon credits, are clearly destined to become primary components of the economy. As we've seen with the elite and grassroots supported global warming movement, the arbitrary scarcity of carbon credits can be easily regulated on the pretext of environmentalism. And peak oil alarmism is always available as a backup. As elite spokespeople have often expressed, when the time comes, the masses will demand the new world order. (a zeitgeist je tu da masama otvori oči u ukaže na pravac "rešenja")

The focus on control over consumption, resources, and distribution is implicit in the emphasis on energy limits, is latent in the geopolitical situation, as regards depletion of global resources, and is indicated by the need for a new unifying paradigm, as the growth paradigm is no longer viable.




Dakle, samo vam se čini da zeitgeist u suštini poziva na uvođenje globalne totalitarne tehno-fašističke vladavine

Marketinški mamac za to je pored manipulacije osećanjima sa postojećim društvenim problemima i socijalistička utopija u kojoj nema rada, već samo dođeš i uzmeš koliko ti treba
Internet forumi su kao javni toalet... udje ko želi, ispiša se gde poželi, i ode...
 
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kvaju

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icon Re: Zeitgeist - Moving Forward30.01.2011. u 00:02 - pre 160 meseci
Taman završio sa gledanjem, nije loše, da su ga malo skratili bilo bi bolje.
Netko je pitao za titlove, ima ih na youtube-u, mogu se aktivirati, ja sam tako gledao, i radi odlično.
 
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pantic68
zoran pantic
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icon Re: Zeitgeist - Moving Forward30.01.2011. u 01:13 - pre 160 meseci
Kako se film primicao kraju tako mi se dizala kosa na glavi. Delovalo je simpatično dok su kritikovali a na kraju se izašlo na suprotnu poziciju. Što se mene tiče bolje da ipak napravimo taj WW3 pa kom opanci kom obojci nego da živimo u svetu kao ga ovi likovi zamišljaju.
 
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3way

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icon Re: Zeitgeist - Moving Forward30.01.2011. u 01:18 - pre 160 meseci
I NIbiru da nam promeni polove pa je prica kompletna.
Sedam sutlijasa,
za sedam samuraja,
za sedam tramvaja.
 
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ArtCool

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icon Re: Zeitgeist - Moving Forward30.01.2011. u 08:15 - pre 160 meseci
Citat:
pantic68:  Što se mene tiče bolje da ipak napravimo taj WW3 pa kom opanci kom obojci nego da živimo u svetu kao ga ovi likovi zamišljaju.


Blagodarim
 
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Ankalagon the Black

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icon Re: Zeitgeist - Moving Forward30.01.2011. u 10:45 - pre 160 meseci
Istina je da Zeitgeist ima veliki propust u svojoj ideji. A to je da ne govori nista o socijalnoj strukturi. Nauka je uvek dobra stvar ali nije jedina dovoljna da definise drustvo. Ideja o globalnom menadzmentu resursima moze da se realizuje i kao totalitarno drustvo i kao najslobodnije drustvo koje je ikada postojalo na Zemlji i sa najvecim mogucnostima daljeg razvoja.

Generalni mentalitet na Zemlji ce odluciti u kom od ta dva pravca ce krenuti drustvo. Sila koja vuce ka slobodi je zelja za boljim zivotom obicnih ljudi. Sila koja vuce ka totalitarizmu je nevoljnost ljudi da prihvate odgovornost za svoj zivot. Ne moze da postoji sloboda bez odgovornosti.
 
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Astral Projection

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icon Re: Zeitgeist - Moving Forward30.01.2011. u 18:04 - pre 160 meseci
Sve ovo odlično zvuči. Grad-mašina i ljudi koji se posvećuju nauci. Ali čisto sumnjam da bi se 7milijardi ljudi moglo posvetiti nauci. Štaviše, od tih 7 milijardi ako se jedna posveti nauci bilo bi odlično. A šta da radi ostalih 6M? Gledaju TV i prave djecu? Mislim da bi se relativno brzo smorili od toliko slobodnog vremena.. Možda griješim...
:(){ :|:& };:
Peace, Love, Unity, Respect!
 
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Sale_123
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icon Re: Zeitgeist - Moving Forward30.01.2011. u 20:14 - pre 160 meseci
Citat:
Astral Projection: Sve ovo odlično zvuči. Grad-mašina i ljudi koji se posvećuju nauci. Ali čisto sumnjam da bi se 7milijardi ljudi moglo posvetiti nauci. Štaviše, od tih 7 milijardi ako se jedna posveti nauci bilo bi odlično. A šta da radi ostalih 6M? Gledaju TV i prave djecu? Mislim da bi se relativno brzo smorili od toliko slobodnog vremena.. Možda griješim...


I ja sam o tome razmisljao, mada nije nauka jedini pravac. Razne vrste umjetnosti, sport i ostale vrste aktivnosti nude mogucnost onima koje nauka ne zanima. A cisto sumljam da neko moze provesti cijeli zivot ne radeci nista, ne interesujuci se za nista. Koliko god bio umoran od posla ili fakulteta, na godisnjem odmoru mogu max dva dana provesti izlezavajuci se. Sve preko toga nesto moram raditi, druzenje, sport, sta god. Tako da, uz pravilan odgoj i stacanje radne navike od malena vjerujem da bi postigli da ljudi sami sebi postave ciljeve i rade ono sto stvarno vole. A Venus nije utopija, koliko to god neki tvrdili. Jer uvijek ce biti mogucnosti a i potrebe da se stvari, uredjaji, procesi poboljsaju.

Cini mi se da svi mi ovde kolektivno patimo od stockholmskog sindroma, i da jednostavno ne mozemo zamisliti zivot bez nekog da nas zaj****, iskoristva i naredjuje, zivot bez vlade i nama dragih politicara. Postojala su, a vjerujem da i danas postoje takva plemena, koja zive u skladu bez ikakve hijerarhije u drustvu. Ipak je okolina ta koja utice na ponasanje i na moralne vrijednosti koje imamo, a ne geni.

Citat:

Give me a child until he is seven and I will give you the man


...
 
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Ankalagon the Black

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icon Re: Zeitgeist - Moving Forward30.01.2011. u 21:31 - pre 160 meseci
Citat:
Sve ovo odlično zvuči. Grad-mašina i ljudi koji se posvećuju nauci. Ali čisto sumnjam da bi se 7milijardi ljudi moglo posvetiti nauci. Štaviše, od tih 7 milijardi ako se jedna posveti nauci bilo bi odlično. A šta da radi ostalih 6M? Gledaju TV i prave djecu? Mislim da bi se relativno brzo smorili od toliko slobodnog vremena.. Možda griješim...


Drustvo koje bi se ulenjilo definitivno bi degradiralo na duze staze (a i na kratke). Srecom, neizbezno je da se ljudska rasa prosiri po svemiru. Neki misle da je istrazivanje svemira dovoljan podsticaj za neprekidan razvoj civilizacije, da medjusobni konflikti i ratovi nisu jedini neophodni u tom smislu.
 
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icon Re: Zeitgeist - Moving Forward30.01.2011. u 22:08 - pre 160 meseci
Citat:
Ankalagon the Black: Drustvo koje bi se ulenjilo definitivno bi degradiralo na duze staze (a i na kratke). Srecom, neizbezno je da se ljudska rasa prosiri po svemiru. Neki misle da je istrazivanje svemira dovoljan podsticaj za neprekidan razvoj civilizacije, da medjusobni konflikti i ratovi nisu jedini neophodni u tom smislu.

Cisto sumljam da je motiv vecine naucnika novac. Onaj ko traga za novcem ide u menadzere, neki svoj biznis ili sta ja znam. Onaj koga interesuje materija, rjesavanje problema itd. upisuje tehnicki fakultet i bavi se istrazivanjem (ako za to naravno ima sredstva).
...
 
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p3j4
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icon Re: Zeitgeist - Moving Forward30.01.2011. u 22:10 - pre 160 meseci
Citat:
Ankalagon the Black: Istina je da Zeitgeist ima veliki propust u svojoj ideji. A to je da ne govori nista o socijalnoj strukturi. Nauka je uvek dobra stvar ali nije jedina dovoljna da definise drustvo. Ideja o globalnom menadzmentu resursima moze da se realizuje i kao totalitarno drustvo i kao najslobodnije drustvo koje je ikada postojalo na Zemlji i sa najvecim mogucnostima daljeg razvoja.


Da li vi shvatate da bi ovako nešto uopšte moglo da dođe na dnevni red za razmatranje prvo mora da dođe do totalnog kolapsa i haosa globalnih razmera?
Od "apelovanja" na razum nema ništa. Kako misliš da se neko tek tako odrekne svog bogatstva i novca, životnog stila koji ostvaruje svojim radom i sposobnosti da bi mu neki tamo svetski centralni komitet diktirao koliko može da troši "resursa"? To je isto kao kada bi nekom pojedincu koji se neodgovorno ponaša prema novcu i uporno troši više nego što zarađuje pričao da promeni ponašanje. On će MOŽDA da promeni ponašanje kada zbog dugova ostane bez gaća. Do tada ništa.

Ima jedna mudrost koja odlično opisuje ovu situaciju:
"Prijatna iskustva čine život prekrasnim. Bolna iskustva vode sazrevanju. Prijatna iskustva čine život lepim, ali sama po sebi ne vode razvoju. Ono što vodi razvoju jesu bolna iskustva. Patnja stavlja prst na neki deo vas koji se još nije razvio, koji treba da raste, da se menja i preobražava. Kada biste znali kako da upotrebite tu patnju, koliko biste se razvili!"

Ako kapitalizam nije dobar, onda će i da propadne, i tek onda ljudi će da stave prst na čelo, razmisle, izvuku pouke iz grešaka i osmisle nešto bolje. Naravno oni koji prežive.
Internet forumi su kao javni toalet... udje ko želi, ispiša se gde poželi, i ode...
 
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Ivan Dimkovic

Ivan Dimkovic
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icon Re: Zeitgeist - Moving Forward30.01.2011. u 22:26 - pre 160 meseci
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p3j4
Ako kapitalizam nije dobar, onda će i da propadne, i tek onda ljudi će da stave prst na čelo, razmisle, izvuku pouke iz grešaka i osmisle nešto bolje. Naravno oni koji prežive.


Kapitalizam postoji jako dugo - od kada je covek izmislio novac a novac je izmisljen... pa odavno ;-)

Ono sto se menja je kolicina slobodne ekonomije vs. nivo kontrole od strane nekog tela (kralj, diktator, centralni komitet, demokratski izabrana vlast, ne-demokratski izabrana vlast itd...) - bukvalno se sve promene politickih sistema svode na to: koliko pojedinac ima slobode u kreiranju i razmeni onoga sto kreira sa drugima.

Sam princip vrednovanja resursa kroz novac je prilicno stara stvar koja se pokazala prilicno stabilnom na promene do sad.

Oni koji bi da zamene nesto sto postoji vec... pa par milenijuma bar :) bi trebalo da se zapitaju koliko je to izvodljivo kada je ta osobina prezivela sve revolucije u proteklih par milenijuma.

Ono gde protagonisti ove teme grese je pretpostavka da bi nekakav kompleksni dizajn globalnog sistema kontrole (bez obzira na to da li tu kontrolu sprovode "eksperti", "tehnokrate", "kompjuteri" itd..) bili bolja zamena za sistem koji evoluira kroz davanje sloboda privrednoj delatnosti - dakle mogucnosti ljudima da slobodno ucestvuju u privredi.

Tu grese - i to vrlo. Istorija nas uci da upravo ekonomske slobode (i, ponovicu, tu ne mislim na slobode iz bajki - vec slobode u privrednom smislu) upravo predstavljaju najbolju osnovu za razvoj na duze staze, jer imaju mogucnost adaptacije.

Globalne vlade, komiteti pa i centralne banke i sl... sve su to stvari koje samo kreiraju dodatni sloj moci i samo stvaraju interesne grupe koje postaju same sebi cilj. Takve stvari treba eliminisati i smanjivati im moc na svakom koraku - a ne kreirati nove i vece.
DigiCortex (ex. SpikeFun) - Cortical Neural Network Simulator:
http://www.digicortex.net/node/1 Videos: http://www.digicortex.net/node/17 Gallery: http://www.digicortex.net/node/25
PowerMonkey - Redyce CPU Power Waste and gain performance! - https://github.com/psyq321/PowerMonkey
 
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Sale_123
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icon Re: Zeitgeist - Moving Forward30.01.2011. u 22:49 - pre 160 meseci
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Ivan Dimkovic
Globalne vlade, komiteti pa i centralne banke i sl... sve su to stvari koje samo kreiraju dodatni sloj moci i samo stvaraju interesne grupe koje postaju same sebi cilj. Takve stvari treba eliminisati i smanjivati im moc na svakom koraku - a ne kreirati nove i vece.


Da, ali cini mi se da ce takve stvari biti toliko dugo koliko i sam kapitalizam. I uvijek ce biti korumpiranih politicara koji ce zarad novca uciniti sve. U senatu je bukvalno bilo kakav zakon moguce progurati ako imas dovoljno novca da se to finansira. Oduvjek sam se pitao, otkud drzavni dug? Ako je skoro svaka zemlja u svijetu duzna, kome onda duguju? Centralna banka i novac zasnovan na dugu je veliko zlo.

Ako bi htjeli poboljsati kapitalizam, onda bi bar trebali uvesti zlatni standard i pronaci drugaciji nacin za glasanje. Mislim, sama pretpostavka demokratije je da mi biramo politicare koji ce nas zastupati u parlamentu/domu/senatu, kako god. Problem je sto u vecini slucajeva njih boli uvo za njihovim glasacima. Gledaju svoj interes i interes korporacija koje su im finansirale politicku kampanju. Varijanta gdje bi svaki gradjanin glasao za zakon mozda ne bi bila idealna ali bi sigurno bila bolja. Onda bi bar samo sebi kroili kapu i morali bi sami preuzeti odgovornost. I opet bi imali problem sa tim, ko kontrolise medije. Danas se mnogi ne libe cak i da priznaju da su medije koristili za propagandu.

I dok god budemo imali hijerarhiju u drustvu, uvijek ce biti oni koji ce manje ili vise biti spremni da ucine sve, da bi se popeli za jednu stepenicu vise.

Citat:
p3j4: Da li vi shvatate da bi ovako nešto uopšte moglo da dođe na dnevni red za razmatranje prvo mora da dođe do totalnog kolapsa i haosa globalnih razmera?
Od "apelovanja" na razum nema ništa. Kako misliš da se neko tek tako odrekne svog bogatstva i novca, životnog stila koji ostvaruje svojim radom i sposobnosti da bi mu neki tamo svetski centralni komitet diktirao koliko može da troši "resursa"? To je isto kao kada bi nekom pojedincu koji se neodgovorno ponaša prema novcu i uporno troši više nego što zarađuje pričao da promeni ponašanje. On će MOŽDA da promeni ponašanje kada zbog dugova ostane bez gaća. Do tada ništa.

Ima jedna mudrost koja odlično opisuje ovu situaciju:
"Prijatna iskustva čine život prekrasnim. Bolna iskustva vode sazrevanju. Prijatna iskustva čine život lepim, ali sama po sebi ne vode razvoju. Ono što vodi razvoju jesu bolna iskustva. Patnja stavlja prst na neki deo vas koji se još nije razvio, koji treba da raste, da se menja i preobražava. Kada biste znali kako da upotrebite tu patnju, koliko biste se razvili!"

Ako kapitalizam nije dobar, onda će i da propadne, i tek onda ljudi će da stave prst na čelo, razmisle, izvuku pouke iz grešaka i osmisle nešto bolje. Naravno oni koji prežive.


Naravno, a treba jos mnoge Grcke da se dese prije nego sto dodje do promjena. A desice se, kad tad.

Za protagoniste kapitalizma

P.S. Ovaj video nema veze sa Zeitgastom ili Venus projektom.
...
 
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